Noir Westerns: A Valid Sub-Genre?

[eubiecat]

I've watched a lot of 1940s/early '50s Westerns recently. They all are, in essence, films noir with a historical setting. And there are a lot of them.

Budd Boetticher's Westerns all have strong noir elements. Horizons West (1952), The Cimarron Kid ('51) and The Man From The Alamo ('53) all grapple with the theme of a man assumed to be a criminal, and/or is forced into a criminal life. Society paints this character into an inexorable corner. The only way out is to commit crimes, and to lead a conflicted double-life while doing so.

Or course, The Boetticher "Ranown" Westerns with Randolph Scott also have strong noir tendencies. So do the '50s Westerns of Anthony Mann and late '40s efforts like Silver Lode, Ramrod, Pursued, Yellow Sky, Blood on the Moon and Station West.

This isn't exactly a new school of thought. Silver and Ward's noir encyclopedia acknowledges the noir/western fusion in one of its appendix sections, and notes several of the movies I mention above. I think there are enough of these western noirs, and enough of them are of high quality, that this branch office of the genre deserves more recognition and consideration.

As well, for those who have "seen it all" in classic noir, that these post-war Westerns offer an intriguing, rewarding filmic vein. Some of the same major noir cinematographers (John Alton, Burnett Guffey) worked on these, and, as Westerns were more likely to be color films, they show how these visual artists adapted noir techniques to a very different set of rules.

I'd like to hear what other Back Alley denizens have to say about this topic...

[JCharles]

Eubiecat, thanks for an excellent commentary. In addition to film noir, I'm a big fan of the noir Western, particularly those of the 40s and 50s. I've seen many of the films you've mentioned and some others: Rawhide, The Tall Target, 3:10 to YUMA, (the Glenn Ford version). It's a kick to see the same Directors and cinematographers of noir try their hand at Westerns, as well as some of the actors usually associated with noir (Widmark, McGraw, Lee Marvin, Steve Brodie, Ted DeCorsia, Hayden, V. Lake, etc) It's often the same kind of crime story, just with Stetsons instead of fedoras and natural canyons instead of those formed by skyscrapers.
The great crime fiction/Western writer Loren Estleman had this to say in a 1997 Mystery Scene interview: "The historic West was at times far grimmer than it's been presented in fiction, as well as richer and more fascinating. Death from violence, hardship, and disease was a daily reality....the success stories are exalting but the stories of failure are chilling. Any attempt to paint an accurate picture of life is bound to employ techniques commonly associated with noir....Both pit that outsider against a wilderness, natural or urban."

[Steve-O]

I do think there is such a thing as Noir Westerns. Check out Rawhide (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043959/) for a great example (not the Eastwood TV show.)

also, a few NOTWs have been westerns. Station West (http://www.noiroftheweek.com/2005/11/station-west-1948-1172005.html) and Devil's Doorway (http://www.noiroftheweek.com/2007/01/devils-doorway-1950.html) are both two examples of westerns filled with noir actors and -- more importantly -- noir elements like great crisp dialog.

You could also add Barbara Stanwyck in The Furies too

[JCharles]

I do think there is such a thing as Noir Westerns. Check out Rawhide (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0043959/) for a great example (not the Eastwood TV show.)

also, a few NOTWs have been westerns. Station West (http://www.noiroftheweek.com/2005/11/station-west-1948-1172005.html) and Devil's Doorway (http://www.noiroftheweek.com/2007/01/devils-doorway-1950.html) are both two examples of westerns filled with noir actors and -- more importantly -- noir elements like great crisp dialog.

You could also add Barbara Stanwyck in The Furies too
Station West, The Devil's Doorway and The Furies are excellent examples of noir Westerns. Yellow Sky is another good one, from the stark lighting and camerawork along with Richard Widmark's version of the black clad hard case. More recently, Wild Bill with Jeff Bridges is a fine psychological Western with noir elements, directed by Walter Hill.

[Davidmk]

I taped "Blood on the moon" this morning off TCM with Robert mitchum , have not watched it yet , but it seems to get good reviews .

[Steve-O]

Blood on the Moon and Pursued are great little noir westerns with Robert Mitchum

12524

[eubiecat]

Hey, thanks for all the comments... I see this is a pretty valid vein of noir to be, er, pursued!

I'm working on a definitive list of noir westerns.

Steve-O, that Anthony Mann you chose as a NOTW looks incredible! Mann and Boetticher were movie-making machines! Their output is astonishing... and the majority of their films are really really good. How did they do it? They had help, and lots of it, and a lot of combined talent... I suppose that's how.

[Surly]

Yes, there are Western noir. I see noir not as a genre but a combination of theme, subject, style or attitude that can be applied in differing measures to preexisting genres. But even there noir is slippery, as noirs vary from their default mode of pessimism and determinism to include the direct denial of them in Borzage's noir, Moonrise. As Ed Gorman and Dow Mossman write in their introduction to Barry Gifford's The Devil Thumbs A Ride, "...it's obvious that noir is handy as a catch-all but useless as a definition." As they said about pornography, you can't define noir, but you know it when you see it.

[Hard-Boiled-Rick]

John Huston's The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
...one of the best with Humphrey Bogart, Walter Huston, and Tim Holt

[Richard]

The great crime fiction/Western writer Loren Estleman had this to say in a 1997 Mystery Scene interview: "The historic West was at times far grimmer than it's been presented in fiction, as well as richer and more fascinating. Death from violence, hardship, and disease was a daily reality....the success stories are exalting but the stories of failure are chilling. Any attempt to paint an accurate picture of life is bound to employ techniques commonly associated with noir....Both pit that outsider against a wilderness, natural or urban."

Estleman should know. Although he is best known as a crime writer he also written several excellent noir westerns. His take on Wyatt Earp and Tombstone in the novel BLOODY SEASON (Bantam 1988) is pure grade-A 100% undistilled noir. I'd like to read the rest of that quote. Do you have a link?

Richard

[JCharles]

Richard, sorry but no link. The quote is from Mystery Scene magazine issue #58, from way back in '97. I still have the copy in my library. The magazine is still being published so I wonder if they have a web-site with archives? I'll look that up, if not, I'll try to post the whole quote in the near future. As a whole, it's a great interview, not just about Westerns but Estleman also holds forth on other matters hardboiled and noir.

I'm a big fan of Bloody Season also. Another great noir Western by him is Black Powder, White Smoke.

[Richard]

The link is no big deal, thanks anyhow.
I haven't read Black Powder White Smoke so I will have to get that one.
I did read Journey of the Dead, which is a a noir of a kind.
Estleman doesn't get enough credit.

I used to have a longer list of classic western noirs at the the tip of my tongue but I can't think of them all now.

The Left-handed Gun (1958), Flaming Star (1961), Ride In the Whirlwind (1965) and its twisted sister The Shooting (1965/7), The Stalking Moon (1968), Tell Them Willie Boy Is Here (1969), Ulzana's Raid (1972) and it's stepbrother Billy Two-Hats (1973) are also western noirs I suppose of the neo-noir era.

Richard

[Richard]

Has anyone seen John Sayles' LONE STAR (1996) ?
A modern and contemporary western noir set in a Rio Grande border town.
A crime from the past intrudes into the present and effects the lives of several different people then and now.
The film aims high and reaches its goals.
I'm not a fan of Sayles, particularly, but LONE STAR is an important and admirable work.
It is also a noir with a lot of vitality.
One of the best films of the 1990s; there weren't many great ones.


Richard

[Bob]

I don't know if I would go so far to say it was one of the best films of the 90s, but I caught LONE STAR on cable one night, not knowing what to expect. A very well made film shot in the same territory where they filmed No Country for Old Men. SW Texas has to be one of the most god forsaken spots in North America.

[Richard]

My review of TELL THEM WILLIE BOY IS HERE:

http://www.amazon.com/Tell-Them-Willie-Amazon-com-Exclusive/dp/B0033PSHA4/ref=pd_bxgy_d_img_a

Richard

[noirguru]

The best Noir Western, The Ox-Bow Incident(1943),next for me would be, Sam Fuller's, Forty Guns(1957).

[Richard]

Forty Guns is pretty funny, actually.
Are you sure it's a noir and not a tongue-in-cheek kink?


Richard

[Night Editor]

A recent article from Bright Lights Film Journal...

http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/66/66noirwesterns.php

[noirguru]

The best Noir Western, The Ox-Bow Incident(1943),next for me would be, Sam Fuller's, Forty Guns(1957).

Richard, it's probably both!! Johnny Guitar(1954), and Rancho Notorious(1952), also fit that description!!

[Surly]

Jacques Tourneur's westerns Canyon Passage, Wichita, and Great Day in the Morning all contain noir or at least noir-ish elements and a feeling of lurking menace.

[Richard]

Richard, it's probably both!! Johnny Guitar(1954), and Rancho Notorious(1952), also fit that description!!

I'm not a big fan of either FORTY GUNS or JOHNNY GUITAR.
My main interest in the latter is the Sedona, Arizona locations and the rich color.
Compare JOHNNY GUITAR to GUN FURY, another western (in 3-D) shot in exactly the same spots and in color at about the same time.
My interest in the former is limited to Fuller's camera set-ups, which are innovative and quite striking and exhibit a flair for visual humor.
But the stories in both films are so ridiculous I prefer to watch them with the sound turned off.
I can't take them seriously as westerns or as noir; perhaps as unintentional caricatures of both genres.

RANCHO NOTORIOUS isn't a bad western, however, although Dietrich's saloon madam had become tiresome by this time.

Sorry.


Richard

[noirguru]

Two more Noir Westerns, The Gunfighter(1950), and Johnny Concho(1956).

[bogie]

Tall In The Saddle(1944)
http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi212337945/

[JCharles]

Two more Noir Westerns, The Gunfighter(1950), and Johnny Concho(1956).

The Gunfighter is a good one, in the same Western classics DVD set is Rawhide, a good gritty noirish oater. I'm also a big fan of Yellow Sky with Peck and Richard Widmark. Widmark's the villain in this one, dressed in black. It has some great stark desert photography, as well, with most of the action taking place in an almost deserted ghost town.
I haven't seen Johnny Concho, however, who's in it?

[Richard]

Johnny Concho was a vehicle for Sinatra annd a low-budget indy released through United Artists.
Phylis Kirk was also in it.


Tall In The Saddle(1944)
http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi212337945/
Tall In the Saddle has a bit of a mystery going on but mainly it's a comedy-adventure, wouldn't you say?


Richard

[noirguru]

Two more Noir Westerns both directed by Raoul Walsh, Dark Command(1940) and Colorado Territory(1949).

[noirguru]

The Gunfighter is a good one, in the same Western classics DVD set is Rawhide, a good gritty noirish oater. I'm also a big fan of Yellow Sky with Peck and Richard Widmark. Widmark's the villain in this one, dressed in black. It has some great stark desert photography, as well, with most of the action taking place in an almost deserted ghost town.
I haven't seen Johnny Concho, however, who's in it?
In Johnny Concho, Frank Sinatra plays a man who goes from the town bully to town coward! Sinatra is very good but William Conrad, steals the picture as the villain, who kills Frank's brother! This film has a strong supporting cast, Keenan Wynn, Wally Ford, Leo Gordon, Claude Akins and Strother Martin. It's not on video but if they show it on cable, don't miss it!

[JCharles]

In Johnny Concho, Frank Sinatra plays a man who goes from the town bully to town coward! Sinatra is very good but William Conrad, steals the picture as the villain, who kills Frank's brother! This film has a strong supporting cast, Keenan Wynn, Wally Ford, Leo Gordon, Claude Akins and Strother Martin. It's not on video but if they show it on cable, don't miss it!

Thanks Richard and noirguru for the blurbs on Johnny Concho, I'm going to keep an eye out for this one. I also recently watched Ambush with Robert Taylor, John Hodiak, and Arlene Dahl. This one kept me watching with some great scenery of Monument Valley. I agree that Colorado Territory is worth viewing, a Western version of High Sierra. If you like McRea, definitely check out Ramrod, which he did with Veronical Lake, directed by Andre DeToth. Very much in the noir Western category.

[noirguru]

Thanks Richard and noirguru for the blurbs on Johnny Concho, I'm going to keep an eye out for this one. I also recently watched Ambush with Robert Taylor, John Hodiak, and Arlene Dahl. This one kept me watching with some great scenery of Monument Valley. I agree that Colorado Territory is worth viewing, a Western version of High Sierra. If you like McRea, definitely check out Ramrod, which he did with Veronical Lake, directed by Andre DeToth. Very much in the noir Western category.
JCharles, I agree with you, Ramrod is a good Noir Western. When Andre DeToth made this film, he was married to Veronica Lake, they had three kids together!

[JCharles]

JCharles, I agree with you, Ramrod is a good Noir Western. When Andre DeToth made this film, he was married to Veronica Lake, they had three kids together!

I recently watched Slattery's Hurricane, also starring Lake and directed by DeToth, and read an article about them and that film in the FNF Sentinel. In some ways, that film is the coda to their relationship. I wasn't aware that they had any kids. Hurricane also stars Richard Widmark and is well worth viewing.

[Mandrakegray]

**copied from another thread- Steve-O**

I don't even know where to start when it comes to discussing "Johnny Guitar"... only to say that I loved it, and wish it would receive a proper, domestic DVD/Blu-ray release. Republic Pictures' Trucolor process is on stunning display throughout the film. I certainly wouldn't argue Steve's take on it being as close to a noir western there is... especially thematically.

BUT since the subject has been broached... I always like to name drop Raoul Walsh's "Pursued" (1947) and William Wellman's "Yellow Sky" (1948, and a personal fave) as westerns I think veer into noir territory. I submit "Yellow Sky" into the discussion thanks in part to it's W.R. Burnett script, Joseph MacDonald's beautiful black and white photography and use of shadows, and the presence of Widmark... still effectively mining variations of his Tommy Udo character at that point. I haven't viewed "Pursued" in eons, but plan on eventually grabbing the DVD while it remains in print.