Noir, Neo-noir and young adults...

[cigar joe]

Oh my, does it ever! Very kind of you, CJ.

Out of all these stories and their film adaptations which is your favourite and which do you think will grab these bright young people the most?

The Window its a noir "the boy who cried wolf" story.

[Justanotherdame]

The Window its a noir "the boy who cried wolf" story.

Sounds perfect. Any idea where I could find the story on which this film is based? I belive it's Woolrich's novella The Boy Cried Murder, reprinted as Fire Escape?

[cigar joe]

Yes is is mam ;-)

[Justanotherdame]

Taking Adam's great questions and trying to come up with some of my own for the noir unit I will soon be starting with my advanced grade 11 students, here are some of the questions I'm thinking of giving them:

Is film noir’s depiction of the human condition pessimistic or just realistic?

According to Steven M. Sanders, in “Film Noir and the Meaning of Life”, the thread running through the design of film noir is the sense that life is meaningless per se, not that one life just happens to be going wrong for the time being and in one particular respect. The philosophically most prominent feature of film noir, then, is its portrayal of the problematic fabric of life as such. In this respect, every noir film thrusts its protagonist into crisis because of the very character of life itself. Do you agree? Disagree? Explain.

How does the conflict between freedom and fatalism play out in today’s world?

Do you identify with the protagonist? If so, why? If you don't, why not, and is there another character in the film with whom you identify more strongly? (Thank you, Adam).

How are noir films a product of the historical and socio-cultural context from which they emerged?

How are noir films a product of the times that spawned them?

How is the dichotomy in film noirs between the hero being a "heroic" police detective or private investigator and a person who makes criminal choices and is an "antihero", at best, articulated? (Thank you, Adam).

What is the connection between existentialism and film noir?

Eddie Muller, the writer, states in his book, Dark City, that "conventional wisdom has branded [film noir] bleak, depressing and nihilistic." Do you agree? Disagree? Why?

Roger Ebert, the film critic, has defined film noir as "a movie where an ordinary guy indulges the weak side of his character and hell opens up beneath his feet.” Do you agree? Explain.

What is there to like or dislike about film noir? Explain.

Are there parallels between the modern world and the reality of the films noirs you have watched? Explain.

When you consider film noir, does doing something well have value in and of itself, even if that something is detrimental to society and to those involved? (Thank you, Adam).

According to Eddie Muller, the writer, “what characterizes genuine noir is the depth of empathy a writer brings to characters who, through a twist of fate or their own destructive nature, face dire, life and death situations.” How is this articulated in the noir films you have watched this year?

Is life meaningless?


There is overlap because I would really like you to help me choose the better questions.

I need about five or six of them. Three that really force my students to look at film noir and its context and three that would be much broader.

The end assignments would be for the students to discuss what they have learnt from watching the films I'll be showing them, but also taking one of the broader questions that are inspired by the themes of film noir and writing an opinion/commentary article addressing some aspect of that question.

Please, don't hesitate to tell me I'm barking up the wrong tree, if it's the case.

And, please, do share with me any other questions you think would be much more appropriate. Or even any other ideas you have for research/projects, etc.

I would definitely like my students to research the historical and socio-cultural context that gave rise to film noir, but I'm open to any other suggestions are willing to make.

Thank you so much for your help.

[Justanotherdame]

Am I too old to take your class?

No, you're not too old, and would be very, very welcome. I think, though, that you'd be disappointed considering that when it comes to FN at least, you have so much more to teach me than I have to teach you.

[cigar joe]

I'll answer a few:

[QUOTE=Justanotherdame;10144]Taking Adam's great questions and trying to come up with some of my own for the noir unit I will soon be starting with my advanced grade 11 students, here are some of the questions I'm thinking of giving them:


How are noir films a product of the historical and socio-cultural context from which they emerged?

How are noir films a product of the times that spawned them?


I've Just read Blackout: World War II and the Origins of Film Noir by Sheri Chinen Biesen (Oct 19, 2005), and its given me some new insight into what I'm trying to quantify. I suggest everyone read it. Here is a nutshell answer to the above two questions. Some quotes from the book below.

A number of elements all came together into what The New York Times tagged the "red meat crime cycle" (before French critics coined the term Film Noir) at the onset of WWII. "The PCA' s lapses in code enforcement, the Office of Censorship banning "un-American" Hollywood gangsters but condoning of depictions of war related atrocities, and the Office of War Information's regulation of screen stories depicting the combat front or domestic home front to promote the war effort---all of these developments complicated WWII censorship and encouraged hard-boiled film adaptations that initially reformed gangsters and promoted patriotic crime." Pictures were filmed with "tremendous studio rationing of lighting, electricity, film stock, and set materials" in an uncharacteristically dark urban Los Angeles basin in response to wartime blackouts.

The first Noir where all of the elements came together was Double Indemnity, and along with other wartime productions such as The Phantom Lady and, Murder My Sweet represented some of the most expressionistic, stylistically black phase of film noir (what I'm calling the *Hard Core Noirs*). "The noir aesthetic evolved from the wartime constraints on film making practices. Brooding, often brutal realism was conveyed in low lit images recycled sets (disguised by shadows, smoke, artificial fog, and rain), tarped studio back lots, or enclosed sound stages.

In the post war period film makers redefined noir realism having more flexibility in location shooting and lighting. Wartime Noir created a psychological atmosphere that in many ways marked a response to an increasingly realistic and understandable anxiety---about war, shortages, changing gender roles, and "a world gone mad"---that was distinctive from the later postwar paranoia about the bomb, the cold war, HUAC, and the blacklist which was more intrinsic to the late 40's and 50's Noir pictures." (lighter grayer or Films Gris, *Soft Core Noir*)

[Adam Lounsbery]

Is film noir’s depiction of the human condition pessimistic or just realistic?

Roger Ebert, the film critic, has defined film noir as "a movie where an ordinary guy indulges the weak side of his character and hell opens up beneath his feet.” Do you agree? Explain.

My wife (who is also a teacher, incidentally) was looking over my shoulder and said these were her two favorite questions. She suggested reframing the first as a more open-ended question instead of an either/or: "Is film noir’s depiction of the human condition pessimistic?"

She also really like Ebert's quote, and thought it might be productive to ask your students questions related to it, like ... "Have you ever done something because you thought you could get away with it?" "What happened?" "Would you do it again?" "What motivates these characters?" "Do you have anything in common with them?"

I think those are good questions. Personally, I'd frame them as "Do you think the doomed protagonists of film noir think they can get away with what they're doing?" "Is getting away with it their primary motivation?"

[Movie Memories]

I like Adam's suggestion of this question, "Do you think the doomed protagonists of film noir think they can get away with what they're doing?" "Is getting away with it their primary motivation?"

Quite often a noir protagonist's desire to get away with what they are doing is secondary to their motivation. Example, getting the woman that has motivated the action, or simply revenge rather than profit.

The succes of their action may exist in their own mind as fantasy rather than reality, with that fantasy, and their desired and anticipated reward, overcoming any logic or common sense they would normally have regarding an extreme action... such as murder.

[Nauga]

1.) Is film noir’s depiction of the human condition pessimistic or just realistic?

2.) How does the conflict between freedom and fatalism play out in today’s world?

3.) What is the connection between existentialism and film noir?


4.) Do you identify with the protagonist? If so, why? If you don't, why not, and is there another character in the film with whom you identify more strongly? (Thank you, Adam).

5.) How is the dichotomy in film noirs between the hero being a "heroic" police detective or private investigator and a person who makes criminal choices and is an "antihero", at best, articulated? (Thank you, Adam).


6.) Eddie Muller, the writer, states in his book, Dark City, that "conventional wisdom has branded [film noir] bleak, depressing and nihilistic." Do you agree? Disagree? Why?


7.) Roger Ebert, the film critic, has defined film noir as "a movie where an ordinary guy indulges the weak side of his character and hell opens up beneath his feet.” Do you agree? Explain.

8.) According to Eddie Muller, the writer, “what characterizes genuine noir is the depth of empathy a writer brings to characters who, through a twist of fate or their own destructive nature, face dire, life and death situations.” How is this articulated in the noir films you have watched this year?


9.) How are noir films a product of the historical and socio-cultural context from which they emerged?


10.) Are there parallels between the modern world and the reality of the films noirs you have watched? Explain.


11.) What is there to like or dislike about film noir? Explain.


12.) When you consider film noir, does doing something well have value in and of itself, even if that something is detrimental to society and to those involved? (Thank you, Adam).

13.) Is life meaningless?


I need about five or six of them. Three that really force my students to look at film noir and its context and three that would be much broader.

I would definitely like my students to research the historical and socio-cultural context that gave rise to film noir, but I'm open to any other suggestions are willing to make.

1, 2, and 3.) Maybe these three questions would be good for your students to ponder altogether? The -isms! I think existentialism is at the heart of noir, but if we take these films as a reflection of our existence, what does it tell us about life? Is it just a document of the realism of life? Do films noir remind us that life is just a fatalistic exercise of banging our heads against the wall or do we have some say in our destiny?

4, 5 and maybe 12?) I like Adam's questions. Think the play between light and dark shows up in noir in not just in the photography but especially in the characters. People start to question what lies at the heart of man - good or evil - and it shows up in the anti-hero or the villain viewers have to admire.

6 and 13?) If noir is nihilistic then life IS meaningless. But does noir suggest that only morality is nihilistic? Or, if neither, and noir is simply a dark look at the human condition what lessons are we supposed to take away from such a cynical view.

7 and 8.) Noir: when bad things happen to good people! I think these two ideas work well together. Who is the most empathetic noir character and why? Is it because of his own actions or the way he responds to being stuck in a web of fate?

11.) I am interested to hear what your students DISlike about film noir since we spend so much time here discussing what we all like about it I wonder if they would change anything, or if they still think the motifs of classic noir apply in a modern world. If we threw the modern "neo-noir" genre out the window, how would they design a modern noir film?

9.) I saved this for last because I love looking at noir within the socio-cultural context. I love history and fully abide by "truth is stranger than fiction" tenet while throwing rose-colored glasses out the window. People love to label these times the good old days, but crime was absolutely rampant, and police departments (especially in big cities like LA, Chicago, and New York) were corrupt as the day is long.

I don't know if you can do this, based on the content, but it might be interesting to show your students some of Weegee's New York photography.



He's famous for his crime scene photos and candid shots of the city's inhabitants which do a lot to disabuse people of the notion that life/people were more wholesome then than they are today. His book of photography, Naked City, inspired the noir film of the same name.

[Justanotherdame]

My wife (who is also a teacher, incidentally)

She also really like Ebert's quote, and thought it might be productive to ask your students questions related to it, like ... "Have you ever done something because you thought you could get away with it?" "What happened?" "Would you do it again?" "What motivates these characters?" "Do you have anything in common with them?"

.

Great questions that I will incorporate as we're watching the films.

Personally, I'd frame them as "Do you think the doomed protagonists of film noir think they can get away with what they're doing?" "Is getting away with it their primary motivation?"

I really, really like these two questions. Nauga has done a wonderful job of putting my questions together in clusters, so to speak, and I will add these two questions to the others.

Thank you.

[Justanotherdame]

1, 2, and 3.) Maybe these three questions would be good for your students to ponder altogether? ...

Thank you!!!! What a wonderful way to organize the questions. If I may borrow some of your words, Nauga, I will put a handout together, clustering the questions, with your insights for the students to ponder and address in one of their final assignments.

I don't know if you can do this, based on the content, but it might be interesting to show your students some of Weegee's New York photography.



He's famous for his crime scene photos and candid shots of the city's inhabitants which do a lot to disabuse people of the notion that life/people were more wholesome then than they are today. His book of photography, Naked City, inspired the noir film of the same name.

I absolute can and will use this. In fact, I will start with these photos and request reactions. This, I hope, will lead to interesting discussions.

[Adam Lounsbery]

This is probably outside the scope of your class, but I thought this might be of interest, and Nauga's mention of Weegee reminded me of it.

Starting in 1954, CBS began broadcasting a show called Night Watch. Donn Reed, a police reporter, rode along with Culver City police officers, lugging a bunch of heavy recording equipment, creating one of the first "reality shows." Just like Weegee's photography, it offers an unvarnished look at the seamier side of life in the supposedly innocent '50s. I also think it's fascinating to hear how people really sounded.

You can download and stream episodes here: http://www.archive.org/details/NightWatch

[Justanotherdame]

This is probably outside the scope of your class, but I thought this might be of interest, and Nauga's mention of Weegee reminded me of it.

Starting in 1954, CBS began broadcasting a police reality show called Night Watch. Donn Reed, a police reporter, rode along with Culver City police officers, lugging a bunch of heavy recording equipment, creating one of the first "reality shows." Just like Weegee's photography, it offers an unvarnished look at the seamier side of life in the supposedly innocent '50s. I also think it's fascinating to hear how people really sounded.

You can download and stream episodes here: http://www.archive.org/details/NightWatch

Oh, Adam! Thank you so much. It really is very interesting. I can definitely include one or two broadcasts, together with Weegee's photos. It will definitely help to set the mood, especially for their research.

If I may, re. a different aspect:

What readings from the first Film Noir Reader would you suggest I give my students as introductory reading material. Pages 3 - 17? Then 17 - 25?

As one of the final assignments, I decided, today, that we will put FN on trial and re-create a court scene over three or four hours of class time.

Thank you, as always, for stopping by and for your help.

[Justanotherdame]

Thank you for your wonderful reply, CJ. Blackout is definitely a most interesting book. These excerpts will come in handy.

[Steve-O]

Thinking about it today, I would recommend Brick and The Lookout. Both are very good neo-noir that star Joseph Gordon-Levitt. Normally I don't like him, but I don't have a problem with him as a young adult in these two. They (especially Brick) use noir language (which I think is an important element of classic noir) to perfect effect. Brick is fun because it references many noir -- including The Maltese Falcon.

If you haven't seen it Brick does have lots of drug dealing stuff in it. But it's no different than what you can see on TV so I don't think it'll be too jarring for young adults.

[Justanotherdame]

They (especially Brick) use noir language (which I think is an important element of classic noir) to perfect effect. Brick is fun because it references many noir -- including The Maltese Falcon.

If you haven't seen it Brick does have lots of drug dealing stuff in it. But it's no different than what you can see on TV so I don't think it'll be too jarring for young adults.

I'm not at all familiar with either of these films, but Brick sounds great for the reasons you've mentioned. The drug dealing is no problem.

I'm about to start Stranger on the Third Floor with them, followed by Double indemnity and I've been thinking that what these people need is the most intense of films noirs. By intense, I mean hardest hitting, most dramatic, etc. Perhaps like Out of the Past.

I'm curious what you and our friends, here, have to say about Crossfire. I'm intrigued by what I've been reading about it. Your feedback is appreciated.

I have to say that What is Film Noir?, the book I've mentioned on the forum, really is very interesting. Particularly when the author discusses the style of FN.

[Nauga]

I'm curious what you and our friends, here, have to say about Crossfire. I'm intrigued by what I've been reading about it. Your feedback is appreciated.

I think Crossfire would a great film to show especially since I know you wanted to focus your students on the social context going on at the time. I think that film has good pacing, looks excellent as far as the noir stylings, and how can you go wrong with Dymytryk and the cast?

A really interesting pairing (even if it was just to watch it yourself) would be with Odds Against Tomorrow. It's set a dozen years later, deals with race relations, and is extremely dark. The pacing might be a little slow for your students, but I think it makes a nice juxtaposition against Crossfire just to see how noir changed in a short span of time.

[Justanotherdame]

... (even if it was just to watch it yourself) would be with Odds Against Tomorrow. It's set a dozen years later, deals with race relations, and is extremely dark. The pacing might be a little slow for your students, but I think it makes a nice juxtaposition against Crossfire just to see how noir changed in a short span of time.

That's always very interesting. Odds Against Tomorrow is another film I don't know, so I'll definitely look into that. Maybe for next year.

I'm excited to see how this year's group is going to react to FN. I'll keep you all posted and hope I'm not boring any of you with my little experiment.

[Justanotherdame]

59 minutes into Stranger on the Third Floor... Initial comment from one student: "From this film, I would say that film noir takes you somewhere you don't really want to go...; somewhere inside you where it's dark and uncomfortable."

Existential angst simplified?

[Nauga]

59 minutes into Stranger on the Third Floor... Initial comment from one student: "From this film, I would say that film noir takes you somewhere you don't really want to go...; somewhere inside you where it's dark and uncomfortable."

Existential angst simplified?

I'd love to be a fly on the wall! I caught the end of The Killing on the MGM channel this weekend and had the exact same thought.

Johnny Clay: "Ehhh... what's the difference?"