What is British Noir?

[MFPhoto]

OK, I just want to get input from whoever wishes to respond. What is British Noir? Is it a subset of Film Noir? Or is it a separate genre influenced by American Film Noir? Are there any fundamental differences between American and British Film Noir (other than the country of origin)? What cultural references and influences do we find in British Noir which we do not find in American Film Noir?

I'm hoping I can get a wide variety of answers here. I would be very disappointed if everyone agreed.

[Livius]

I think classic era noir, whether British or US, arose from the same circumstances: the economic hardships of the 30s and then the war. BritNoir, IMO, really only comes into its own after the war though as opposed to the evolution of the US variety during hostilities. I think there is a cultural difference in that Britain, as a nation, was physically scarred in a way that the US wasn't (America brought its scars back home via the physical and psychological damage suffered by returning vets) and that shattered landscape is reflected on film.

The British films are also shaped by differing social factors. The more rigid, constrictive class system plays a role although the legacy of the war would see that gradually eroded. Additionally, there's the matter of post-war austerity (rationing etc.) that soon cooled the euphoria of victory and extended well into the next decade.

[noirguru]

How about French Noir?

[Night Editor]

In the the Noir City Sentinel (Film Noir Foundation) Annual #3, the four lead essays are on British noir and each one of them is a 'corker'. Definitely worth the price of admission.

[MFPhoto]

I think classic era noir, whether British or US, arose from the same circumstances: the economic hardships of the 30s and then the war.

Thanks for your comment, but I must partly disagree with this statement. Certainly there were dark films in the 1930's, but generally at least the reaction of American films to the depression was not noir, but more whimsical escapist entertainment. This was the heyday of the musical, slapstick, screwball comedies. Even murder mysteries were light hearted, such as The Thin Man series. But all that seemed irrelevant when we get to World War II and noir was born.

[MFPhoto]

In the the Noir City Sentinel (Film Noir Foundation) Annual #3, the four lead essays are on British noir and each one of them is a 'corker'. Definitely worth the price of admission.

When I get a chance, I will check it out. I assume it is available on-line via the website?

[Night Editor]

Just click on the Film Noir Foundation tab above.

[Livius]

Thanks for your comment, but I must partly disagree with this statement. Certainly there were dark films in the 1930's, but generally at least the reaction of American films to the depression was not noir, but more whimsical escapist entertainment. This was the heyday of the musical, slapstick, screwball comedies. Even murder mysteries were light hearted, such as The Thin Man series. But all that seemed irrelevant when we get to World War II and noir was born.

Fair enough. But the point I was making (maybe not too well) was that noir grew out of the combined, or cumulative, effect of those two factors.

[Steve-O]

Guy Savage is our Brit Noir historian. Check out Guy's reviews in the review section at NOTW too.

I find this an interesting thread because although some noir from Europe was clearly influenced by early Hollywood 40s noir (like many of the French noir from the late 40s and on) British noir pretty much existed and evolved around the same time as American noir instead of being simply a copy of it. The backdrop of WWII and post war England is certainly a noir-ish looking -- dark, dangerous-- place. Are there any differences between Brit and American noir? I think so... Brit noir (as I mention) seem to have characters seemingly trying to rebuild their lives after the war... while American noir (Postman Always Rings Twice for one) were often times based on books that had characters that were trying to survive during the depression. The movies would turn these characters in to WWII vets trying to catch a break after the war instead -- to make the story more relevant to 40s audiences.

[MFPhoto]

The backdrop of WWII and post war England is certainly a noir-ish looking -- dark, dangerous-- place.

This statement brought to mind something I read or heard about the Universal horror films of the 1930's, which were partly influenced by European (German) film. Sets for outdoor scenes were designed to look like Europe after WWI. These films were often as much comedy as horror, so they certainly are not film noir; so this is a bit off topic. But it relates to your observation.

To all, I will try to check out the articles you mentioned. But the questions I asked were not for information. I asked them to start a conversation and debate. So rather than post references to articles, please post your opinions - just like Steve-O! Thanks.

[Guy Savage]

Hey MFPhoto:

have you ever noticed how many American noir characters try high-tailing it to Mexico? It seems that while a fair chunk of American noir characters are trying to break out of society (morally, sexually, literally), there's a common theme in British noir for characters to try to claw their way INTO society. ' Course they use the same questionable methods.... with the same inevitable results.

[Guy Savage]

My opinion, and it's just that, is that British noir crawled out from the same sort of societal discontent and anarchic vision as its american counterpart.

[Arthur Bannister]

The way I see it, the Brits and the French in the 30s were dealing with both the economic/social dislocations of the Depression and the anxiety that came with the rise of Fascism in neighboring countries (plus there were plenty of Fascist sympathizers in England and France as well). By the end of the decade the sense of dread was so palpable that it was impossible for it not to seep into their films, so we got Poetic Realism from the French (Le Jour se Leve and Quai des Brumes in particular) and from the Brits pictures like They Drive by Night and On the Night of the Fire. Existential dread, anxiety, and social disruption were the soil from which both British and French Noir sprang, I believe.

American filmmakers almost certainly saw these films and probably picked up on their doom-laden, fatalistic qualities, which then soon showed up in American Bs like Stranger on the Third Floor and The Maltese Falcon. Once Americans had gotten a close, hard look at the overwhelming horrors of WWII (including the atom bomb) they were ready for Noir and plenty of it.

[MFPhoto]

My opinion, and it's just that, is that British noir crawled out from the same sort of societal discontent and anarchic vision as its american counterpart.

"Anarchic?" Well, you can say that there is a common theme in film noir of the legal system either breaking down or just not functioning. Is that what you mean?

[Steve-O]

One thing about the French. They didn't see American noirs until after the war and they became available to them overseas when the war ended. Then the French began putting out all those noirs with Jean Gabin and so on.

[MFPhoto]

The way I see it, the Brits and the French in the 30s were dealing with both the economic/social dislocations of the Depression and the anxiety that came with the rise of Fascism in neighboring countries (plus there were plenty of Fascist sympathizers in England and France as well). By the end of the decade the sense of dread was so palpable that it was impossible for it not to seep into their films, so we got Poetic Realism from the French (Le Jour se Leve and Quai des Brumes in particular) and from the Brits pictures like They Drive by Night and On the Night of the Fire. Existential dread, anxiety, and social disruption were the soil from which both British and French Noir sprang, I believe.

American filmmakers almost certainly saw these films and probably picked up on their doom-laden, fatalistic qualities, which then soon showed up in American Bs like Stranger on the Third Floor and The Maltese Falcon. Once Americans had gotten a close, hard look at the overwhelming horrors of WWII (including the atom bomb) they were ready for Noir and plenty of it.

Keep in mind that during most of the '30's few Americans gave a damn about what was happening in Europe. Around the end of the decade many began seeing Nazism as a threat, but even after war broke out in 1939 most Americans still considered it to ber a European problem. There is certainly no exact starting point, but dark influences ffrom Europe did not seem to have a large effect until just before the US was forced into the war by the attack on Pearl Harbor. (Although the Roosevelt administration assumed we would go to war and was making preperations, this was generally not know to the American public.)

But it seems to me that most pre-war Hollywood references to Nazism came from European born directors, and usually in films which were not noir. Two examples are Hitchcock's Foreign Correspondent and Chaplin's The Great Dictator, both released in 1940 and both which do not actually name Germany or Hitler, but you know that is who the films were directed against. Even after the war began, when film noir was just being born, you still see comic attacks on Nazism from European directors; i.e., Ernst Lubitsh's To Be or Not To Be (1942).

[Guy Savage]

My opinion (free): Society just doesn't work for noir characters--be they French, British, American, whatever.. perhaps they've been given a raw deal, or perhaps they've had bad luck, but they know, they just know that things aren't going to change unless they take the opportunity handed to them by fate.

Yes partly the legal system, but also society and its institutions in general. These characters don't buy the BS that if you work hard you get ahead. They're going to beat that system...well that's the idea anyway.

That's what I mean by anarchic-

[MFPhoto]

Then there are those characters who do fit into the system, work hard to get ahead, and still get betrayed when the system fails them. I'm talking about the innocent man on the run. That is a common noir theme, borrowed from Hitchcock. The first example that comes to mind is Alan Ladd's character in The Blue Dahlia.

[Guy Savage]

either way, you're screwed.

[mkronenberg]

I'm currently designing the upcoming issue of NOIR CITY and Guy Savage has an excellent cover story article about British Noir femme fatales.