A Hard Core Noir Genre

[cigar joe]

Lets for fun call ourselves Noir Gods
And we are now creating from scratch the perfect NOIR GENRE.

We all sort of have an idea what Noir Style films are from a sampling of the 500 or so films labeled Film Noirs that already exist. And we also all know how ridiculously varied and fuzz the label has become, noir means many different things to many people, some titles seem to just basically be called “Noir” just for an advertising gimmick. Arguments can be endless.

Remember we are not trying to define noir as they exist now, its just a real can of worms, obviously, its a very loosley defined style and everyone has their own opinion of what fits it.

I'm saying from here on out let US narrowly define a Hard Core Noir Genre and back existing films that fit our criteria into it.

Examples, Out Of The Past considered a Noir classic but has an awful lot of day shots and can stay comfortably where it is as noir is currently defined now, along with The Naked City another film that is almost 90% dayshots and quite a few others that don't fit into a hard core Noir Genre. Another film that is not noir enough but is considered a Noir is The Big Steal its more of a Crime/Road picture.


With out having a concrete definition (or Genre) going in these noir style films are going to range all over the map like they do now, because they were never thought of as a genre. In fact in Eddie Muller's Dark City Dames one of the actresses featured was quoted referring to the current vogue for Noir saying "we didn't think the films were anything special we just thought they were cheap". No one ever started out to make a Noir Genre Film.

Think about the Western Genre. A studio or a producer decides to make a Western, so they automatically say to themselves what do we need/do. Well the film needs to take place out WEST, it needs horses, cattle, cowboys, indians and their accouterments and paraphernalia. Wagons, saloons, dust, etc., etc., every one of us can rattle off a list of archetypes. And on the flip side we also know what a Western shouldn't have in it.

So….
Just like the Western Genre there are certain conventions that Westerns have used that became visually generic. So in creating a true NOIR GENRE we can now come up with a list of conventions and archetypes that will fit it. I’m drawing these conventions from the darkest and most stylistic Noirs that I’ve seen to date.


So here is my list (feel free to add):

Cinematography - Noir Stylistics - no fill light, Dutch angles, high contrast, shadows, etc.

Time Period roughly between 1934 to 1960 + or - coinciding with aerodynamic cars, boxy square-ish cars are OUT

Time of Day - basically perpetual NIGHT less than 5-15% of the film should be ever in daylight

Location - at least 95 % of the film should be filmed in The City and its industrial periphery or a small town, no farms, mountains, beaches, forests, wilderness, unless at night and only 5%.

Music mostly 95% Jazz and Blues, Dino, Sinatra, Bennett, Horne, Holliday, etc., some rock & roll but absolutely no Beatles

Storyline 95% CRIME related and its diegetic world of characters and their usually shady forms of employment.

Characters either obsessed or alienated and adrift in a world out of their control.

Voice Over Narration to advance the story is always acceptable.

Flashbacks can be used to also to advance the story.

Costuming fedora hats a must for men or whenever appropriate, Women in heels, seamed stockings and garters always unless naked ;-) Smoking & Drinking mandatory

Weather overcast 50% of the film and some rain to provide pavement reflections

Graphic Novel Style as used in the film Sin City is perfectly acceptable in the Noir Genre in fact it may be the least expensive way to create the Diegetic Noir World of the Genre time period.

Archetypes that must always appear, bare lightbulbs in ceiling fixtures or hanging from cords, neon signs, etc., etc. we can make a use list of these. ;-)

So what we should do from here on out is examine each of the criteria and go into them in depth, or add any if something is missing (as in the archetypes) list iconic characters that should be in these films. If you have a list of favorite Noir Style films examine the elements used in their creation and discuss the elements rather than just say a film title. Remember that we are also creating the Film Soliel Genre so the sun baked desert and crossroad diners Noir stylistic films that have more day than night should go into that Genre ;-).

Hard Core Noirs (that I've seen) so far that could be backed into the genre

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
Detour
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity

[noirton mcgraw]

very well put 'cigar joe', i couldn't have said it better. here's a few points i'd like to add on what i think a noir film should be/have (for me) : MUST be in B&W ONLY, smoke filled bar/nightclub/lounge scenes, lots of factory/wherehouse shots/scenes same for alley ways/side streets/wrestling/boxing posters, poolhalls/newspaper/shinestands, sidestreet diners/lounchenettes/pinball arcades, street sweeper trucks/newspaper/bread/garbage/laundry trucks, boarding/flop houses, rain,darkness, traffic/ cigars/cirgarettes/smoke/screams/sirens/ wisecracks/sarcasim/crying/punches/ringing phones/shiney shoes/high heel shoes/ dames/thugs/mugs/saps/fallguy/stoolie/con/conman/dick/gumshoe/copper/double cross/lies/gunshots/closeups of frighten faces/fear, smog/ pier/boat horn sounding/beatup faces/calest cab drivers/hats, a match being lit in darkness, a cat jumping from a gabbage can in dark alley, a crap game in a smoke filled back room/club,a back room poker game/ a racetrack scene, a smoke filled boxing match with closeups of the faces in crowd, a cop walking the beat, a corner candy store,shot of city stores/ womans/mens cothing with maniquins in window, sidewalks with garbage cans, ex pugs, drink'in/whiskey, banks shots/exterior/interior, bowling alleys, greasey hamburger joints, jazz joints, closeups of eyes in darkness .......

[Johnny O'Clock]

I understand the effort and direction but where would a film like Nightmare Alley fit? It's very dark (in both lighting and story line) but some of the criteria listed do not fit.

And yet, in my opinion, it is quintessential noir!

[cigar joe]

I understand the effort and direction but where would a film like Nightmare Alley fit? It's very dark (in both lighting and story line) but some of the criteria listed do not fit.

And yet, in my opinion, it is quintessential noir!

Yea Nightmare Alley is definitely one I should have put it on the list, remember we are going for the Visual Noir's, that Visual quality that the French critics picked up on.

The world of the traveling carnival is definitely part of the Diegetic Noir World, the same for say a film taking place on an Amusement Pier in a seaside town, I haven't seen it yet but a Noir called "The Gangster" starring Barry Sullivan, Belita, Joan Lorring, Akim Tamiroff, Harry Morgan, John Ireland, and Elisha Cook Jr., takes place in Asbury Park/Neptune NJ I believe.

[Steve-O]

Where Danger Lives doesn't take place in the city. Most in Mexico too, if I remember correctly. However, I don't believe that noir must take place in the city. It's certainly not a huge requirement for me. Interesting thread. I think that's why Noir isn't a genre like Westerns. It's very easy to label something western or Sci Fi than it is to label something noir (although everything is labeled noir now a days. Horrible Bosses last year was called a noir comedy. Really?)

[cigar joe]

Where Danger Lives doesn't take place in the city. Most in Mexico too, if I remember correctly. However, I don't believe that noir must take place in the city. It's certainly not a huge requirement for me. Interesting thread. I think that's why Noir isn't a genre like Westerns. It's very easy to label something western or Sci Fi than it is to label something noir (although everything is labeled noir now a days. Horrible Bosses last year was called a noir comedy. Really?)

Well that is the point of this thread, no they don't have to take place in the city, but then they should take place at night. Its the Noir Visual elements I'm emphasizing. I'm glad you mentioned Where Danger Lives once it picks up steam its basically a Road Noir and it fits beautifully in the Hard Core Noirs, as opposed to say "The Big Steal" another road picture that hardly qualifies as a noir at all, granted it does have one noir lit .segment about a minute long near the very end

[waltermcwilliams]

I understand the effort and direction but where would a film like Nightmare Alley fit? It's very dark (in both lighting and story line) but some of the criteria listed do not fit.

And yet, in my opinion, it is quintessential noir!

Started watching this last night actually. About 20min from the end my dame called me, and well, I had to go. Looking foward to finishing it after work. Loving it so far!!

[Adam Lounsbery]

These seem like difficult things to quantify. How do you determine, for instance, if a story is "95% crime-related"? Do 19 out of every 20 characters in the film have to be involved in criminal enterprise of some kind? Or do 57 minutes of every hour have to be related to crime in some way? If that's the case, I can't think of too many films that would make the cut.

[Johnny O'Clock]

These seem like difficult things to quantify. How do you determine, for instance, if a story is "95% crime-related"? Do 19 out of every 20 characters in the film have to be involved in criminal enterprise of some kind? Or do 57 minutes of every hour have to be related to crime in some way? If that's the case, I can't think of too many films that would make the cut.

This is a problem I noticed as well.

Also, I don't believe the "original French critics" who coined "film noir" described it as such strictly due to the visual qualities of the films (such as Laura, Double Indemnity, Murder My Sweet). I believe a lot had to do with the material as well...after all "black film" can be dark in many ways other than shadows.

[cigar joe]

These seem like difficult things to quantify. How do you determine, for instance, if a story is "95% crime-related"? Do 19 out of every 20 characters in the film have to be involved in criminal enterprise of some kind? Or do 57 minutes of every hour have to be related to crime in some way? If that's the case, I can't think of too many films that would make the cut.

Remember the point is to create a Hard Core Noir Genre from scratch. Forget trying to fit all Noir as we currently know them into it, that's not going to work precisely for the reasons you mention. As far as the criteria its all up for discussion I just threw that 95% figure out there maybe it should just emphasize crime rather than drama, we can decide.

[Johnny O'Clock]

Maybe a good way to approach it would be to discuss the films we think encompass noir the best? From that discussion, likely all the criteria for a Hard Core Noir Genre would be contained therein...

For example - Night Has a Thousand Eyes - even the stars are deadly!

[cigar joe]

This is a problem I noticed as well.

Also, I don't believe the "original French critics" who coined "film noir" described it as such strictly due to the visual qualities of the films (such as Laura, Double Indemnity, Murder My Sweet). I believe a lot had to do with the material as well...after all "black film" can be dark in many ways other than shadows.

Again we should not try and define a Hard Core Visually Noir Genre by what currently already is a very loose definition of Noir. That is the problem its all over the map and everyone has a different opinion of what is and what isn't Noir, its basically an "I know it when I see it" type thing.

If we create a Visually Hard Core Noir Genre we can say it can be dark in many ways but must also be dark visually. I think it would be very cool and very creative to actually set out to make a new Noir Genre of Film that would be instantly recognizable by its archetypes just like Westerns are.

In fact Just like the Hayes Code enhanced the creative process in various ways of getting around certain taboos the constraints of a Visually Noir Genre could do likewise, no?

[spress]

This reminds me of the "technically noir" thread. I objected to that concept then and I still do. The one thing we seem to all agree on is that "noir" is not a genre; it 's something else. But what? I've seen it called a movement (Occupy Noir?), a sensibility (the world sucks, deal with it?), and other things. Does it have to be urban, b&w, nocturnal, American, set in certain time periods, containing only certain kinds of lighting, camera angles, cars, etc.? Why? Why start the time frame from films made in the mid-30's? I personally find films from the 30's very different (and generally "less noir"-- whatever that means) from 40's films. But there are exceptions to that. I also don't like Westerns, so Western noir is not included in my list. I've only recently begun to appreciate Victorian and Edwardian melodrama, so I'm playing catch-up there. There are films made in France, Hong Kong, Eastern Europe, late 1930's UK, etc. that I consider noir, but wouldn't if they were made in the US. I have no rational basis for explaining that, so don't ask.

If we created a hard and fast definition of noir, some films would come very close, but just not quite make it. Will we need a "noir with asterisk" category to cover them? Or we will have to bend the boundaries? Then where do we stop?

For me "noir" is a dynamic concept that evolves as I see more films, expand or contract my own thinking about it, develop new or drop old idiosyncrasies. Neo-noir (which some people reject) also helps push the boundaries. I know this is unscientific, flies in the face of coming up with a clear definition or codification, and is content-wise applicable to me only. I tend to the notions of noir as sensibility, "noir-enough" and degrees of noirishness.

That being said, "noir" is not an infinitely flexible or permeable concept. Usually I know it (for myself) when I see it, though there are films which I have to give a lot of thought to.

I am not trying to disparage the "hard core" project in any way. I will follow it with great interest. Even though I probably won't participate beyond this, I am certain my thinking will be affected by it, thanks to all who do contribute.

[cigar joe]

Exactly as it is now its not a Genre. No one ever started out making a Noir, but they did start out making "Cheap" films to fit the double bills.

But what if we made it one right here and now, Just as the Western is a genre Hard Core Noir could be a genre, think of the recent Graphic Novel Film "Sin City" or the SiFi Noir "Dark City". The two Diegetic Worlds and the rules followed created in those two films were refreshing DARK. I'd like to see more of that, more of that world view, than crisp crystal clear modern contemporary digital blandness.

But that's just me.

Why not go for it, make it a movement, lol, what's it going to hurt, we'd have a Hard Core, and a I guess "Soft Core" stylistic Noir, and then the current Classic Noirs (a combination of both) with every thing everybody wants to cram in under that loose definition.

[Arthur Bannister]

For me "noir" is a dynamic concept that evolves as I see more films, expand or contract my own thinking about it, develop new or drop old idiosyncrasies. Neo-noir (which some people reject) also helps push the boundaries. I know this is unscientific, flies in the face of coming up with a clear definition or codification, and is content-wise applicable to me only. I tend to the notions of noir as sensibility, "noir-enough" and degrees of noirishness.

That being said, "noir" is not an infinitely flexible or permeable concept. Usually I know it (for myself) when I see it, though there are films which I have to give a lot of thought to.

This expresses almost precisely how I feel about the subject (thanks, spress!). Noir's slippery, impossible-to-pin-down quality is a big part of what makes it endlessly fascinating to me. Trying to turn it into a genre with clearly defined parameters would rob it of something of its essence as far as I'm concerned. Still, like spress I'll read this thread with interest.

[Adam Lounsbery]

As far as I'm concerned, Sin City was a creatively bankrupt piece of shit, so any "Dogme 95"-style approach to classifying and quantifying a genre that would produce more films like it would be something I'm against.

[cigar joe]

As far as I'm concerned, Sin City was a creatively bankrupt piece of shit, so any "Dogme 95"-style approach to classifying and quantifying a genre that would produce more films like it would be something I'm against.

Right now there really is no Genre, what really bugs the shit out of me are films that are called Noir that really aren't at all, they are just Crime films, Thrillers, or Dramas.

[noirton mcgraw]

i want to add my 2 cents to the later part of this thread.... i have never saw 'sin city' or any other "new wave" noir, nor will i ever. i don't mean to or want to offend anyone who considers any of these "new" noir films "noir", thats anyone's preference, and thats fine. this is just my opinion what i consider is "true noir" and what i like, but to me, the only real noir are the movies from the 40's,50's and are always B&W, there's something there that just can't be reproduced. yes, you can make a movie in b&w today with the same angles,shots,scenes as the noir from the 40's,50's, but (for me) it just wouldn't have that same feel, it's like a rare antique, you can reproduce it, but it's not the same. i may be a little crazy, but this is how i feel, but that doesn't mean it's that way for everyone.

[cigar joe]

i want to add my 2 cents to the later part of this thread.... i have never saw 'sin city' or any other "new wave" noir, nor will i ever. i don't mean to or want to offend anyone who considers any of these "new" noir films "noir", thats anyone's preference, and thats fine. this is just my opinion what i consider is "true noir" and what i like, but to me, the only real noir are the movies from the 40's,50's and are always B&W, there's something there that just can't be reproduced. yes, you can make a movie in b&w today with the same angles,shots,scenes as the noir from the 40's,50's, but (for me) it just wouldn't have that same feel, it's like a rare antique, you can reproduce it, but it's not the same. i may be a little crazy, but this is how i feel, but that doesn't mean it's that way for everyone.

I know what you mean, you can't really make a Western for that matter either for exactly the same reasons, if you think about it Westerns were contemporary to the time they were first made in fact when "The Great Train Robbery" was filmed The Wild Bunch was still in operation. Westerns and the folks that made them had a direct link to that past and the West, that hands on knowledge was passed on and that thread didn't unravel much until the late 70's when Westerns went out of fashion.

That example above that I gave of the graphic novel based film "Sin City" was cited not so that filmmakers should emulate that particular film, but as an illustration of how that 40's & 50's world could be replicated fairly inexpensively today.

I've always thought that Mickey Spillane's New York City detective series Mike Hammer (aside from "Kiss Me Deadly" which switched coasts) never was really captured in its native location nor fully reached its potential on the big screen and it would be ripe for a go with plenty of material to draw from.

Anyway you should give a screening to "Farewell My Lovely' (1974) I thought that film did a great job of capturing the Classic Noir feel, see my review here:http://www.backalleynoir.com/showthr...he-Color-Noirs

[Movie Memories]

this is just my opinion what i consider is "true noir" and what i like, but to me, the only real noir are the movies from the 40's,50's and are always B&W, there's something there that just can't be reproduced. yes, you can make a movie in b&w today with the same angles,shots,scenes as the noir from the 40's,50's, but (for me) it just wouldn't have that same feel, it's like a rare antique, you can reproduce it, but it's not the same. i may be a little crazy,

We have touched on this in a couple of other threads, and you're not crazy. No matter how much technical ability and replication we could come up with there is no way the mood and sentiment of the time period could be reproduced. That mood and sentiment is critical to the feel of classic noir.

As for the ongoing debate as to noir being a genre or a style, it is totally subjective. You could find a list of experts who have claimed either position.

One of the more appealing aspects of film noir is that it will always be open to conversation and debate as to its definition. There will never be a "cut-and-dry" description and the style or genre question will also never be definitely accepted as clearly one or the other.

To me, neither of these pose a problem. They just simply add to the intriguing and mysterious appeal of film noir.