A Hard Core Noir Genre

[cigar joe]

Hard Core List to Date adding They Made me a Fugitive:

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
Detour
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity
T Men
The Killing
Dead Reckoning
The Crooked Way
Edge of Doom
The Dark Corner
Where The Sidewalk Ends
Kiss Me Deadly
Sudden Fear
Armored Car Robbery
They Made me a Fugitive

[Steve-O]

Our friend Wheeler Winston Dixon has a nice interview where he discusses Film Noir -- whether or not it's a genre or not comes up:

Dixon also took issue with a Film Streams press release that said movie experts debate whether noir is a style or a genre.


"That argument was settled long ago," he said. "It's a genre. It has style, of course. High key lighting, lots of shadows, run-down sets, threadbare costumes, low ceilings, confrontational in-your-face close-ups, off-kilter camera angles. Visual style it has, to burn."

A good read.

[Arthur Bannister]

Dixon also took issue with a Film Streams press release that said movie experts debate whether noir is a style or a genre.


"That argument was settled long ago," he said. "It's a genre."

Well, we can certainly agree that it's been settled in his mind.

[Steve-O]

Well, we can certainly agree that it's been settled in his mind.

lol... that was my first thought...

[noirguru]

When I was in college, I took a course on, American Film Genres. We studied every genre, you could think of, but not Film Noir! We believed that Film Noir was a style that could apply to certain genres, i.e. Mystery Genre, but it's definitely not a genre, it can't stand alone!

[Surly]

Some worry we lower the bar
And confer to bestow the term "noir"
Is it genre or style?
(This goes on for a while)
I'll defer, and just go to the bar.

[cigar joe]

Hard Core List to Date adding They Made me a Fugitive:

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
Detour
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity
T Men
The Killing
Dead Reckoning
The Crooked Way
Edge of Doom
The Dark Corner
Where The Sidewalk Ends
Kiss Me Deadly
Sudden Fear
Armored Car Robbery
They Made me a Fugitive

Add Storm Warning to the list at least visually, the story is a bit weak though

[cigar joe]

Updated & made alphabetical

Films de la nuit

Armored Car Robbery
The Asphalt Jungle
The Big Combo
Black Angel
Crime Wave
Criss Cross
The Crooked Way
Crossfire
The Dark Corner
Dead Reckoning
Detour
Double Indemnity
Edge of Doom
Fallen Angel
He Walked By Night
Killers Kiss
The Killers
The Killing
Kiss Me Deadly
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
99 River Street
The Phantom Lady
Raw Deal
Red Light
Scarlett Street
The Strange Lives of Martha Ivers
Sudden Fear
Storm Warming
T Men
The Set Up
They Live By Night
They Made me a Fugitive
Touch Of Evil
Where Danger Lives
Where The Sidewalk Ends
The Window

[Falcon41]

Well, I doubt there's any disagreement that "The Killers" is pure noir, starting with that stunning opening sequence! I turned a friend of mine on to this film recently and it knocked her socks off.

[cigar joe]

Updated with The City That Never Sleeps

Films de la nuit

Armored Car Robbery
The Asphalt Jungle
The Big Combo
Black Angel
The City That Never Sleeps
Crime Wave
Criss Cross
The Crooked Way
Crossfire
The Dark Corner
Dead Reckoning
Detour
Double Indemnity
Edge of Doom
Fallen Angel
He Walked By Night
Killers Kiss
The Killers
The Killing
Kiss Me Deadly
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
99 River Street
The Phantom Lady
Raw Deal
Red Light
Scarlett Street
The Strange Lives of Martha Ivers
Sudden Fear
Storm Warming
T Men
The Set Up
They Live By Night
They Made me a Fugitive
Touch Of Evil
Where Danger Lives
Where The Sidewalk Ends
The Window

[cigar joe]

Updated with Desperate

Films de la nuit

Armored Car Robbery
The Asphalt Jungle
The Big Combo
Black Angel
The City That Never Sleeps
Crime Wave
Criss Cross
The Crooked Way
Crossfire
The Dark Corner
Dead Reckoning
Desperate
Detour
Double Indemnity
Edge of Doom
Fallen Angel
He Walked By Night
Killers Kiss
The Killers
The Killing
Kiss Me Deadly
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
99 River Street
The Phantom Lady
Raw Deal
Red Light
Scarlett Street
The Strange Lives of Martha Ivers
Sudden Fear
Storm Warming
T Men
The Set Up
They Live By Night
They Made me a Fugitive
Touch Of Evil
Where Danger Lives
Where The Sidewalk Ends
The Window

[cigar joe]

Adding Hollow Triumph (The Scar)

Films de la nuit

Armored Car Robbery
The Asphalt Jungle
The Big Combo
Black Angel
The City That Never Sleeps
Crime Wave
Criss Cross
The Crooked Way
Crossfire
The Dark Corner
Dead Reckoning
Desperate
Detour
Double Indemnity
Edge of Doom
Fallen Angel
He Walked By Night
Hollow Triumph (The Scar)
Killers Kiss
The Killers
The Killing
Kiss Me Deadly
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
99 River Street
The Phantom Lady
Raw Deal
Red Light
Scarlett Street
The Strange Lives of Martha Ivers
Sudden Fear
Storm Warming
T Men
The Set Up
They Live By Night
They Made me a Fugitive
Touch Of Evil
Where Danger Lives
Where The Sidewalk Ends
The Window

[cigar joe]

Adding The Street With No Name after a second viewing.

Films de la nuit

Armored Car Robbery
The Asphalt Jungle
The Big Combo
Black Angel
The City That Never Sleeps
Crime Wave
Criss Cross
The Crooked Way
Crossfire
The Dark Corner
Dead Reckoning
Desperate
Detour
Double Indemnity
Edge of Doom
Fallen Angel
He Walked By Night
Hollow Triumph (The Scar)
Killers Kiss
The Killers
The Killing
Kiss Me Deadly
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
99 River Street
The Phantom Lady
Raw Deal
Red Light
Scarlett Street
The Strange Lives of Martha Ivers
Sudden Fear
Storm Warming
T Men
The Set Up
The Street With No Name
They Live By Night
They Made me a Fugitive
Touch Of Evil
Where Danger Lives
Where The Sidewalk Ends
The Window

[cigar joe]

Adding Cry Of The City after a second viewing.

Films de la nuit

Armored Car Robbery
The Asphalt Jungle
The Big Combo
Black Angel
The City That Never Sleeps
Crime Wave
Criss Cross
The Crooked Way
Crossfire
Cry Of The City
The Dark Corner
Dead Reckoning
Desperate
Detour
Double Indemnity
Edge of Doom
Fallen Angel
He Walked By Night
Hollow Triumph (The Scar)
Killers Kiss
The Killers
The Killing
Kiss Me Deadly
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
99 River Street
The Phantom Lady
Raw Deal
Red Light
Scarlett Street
The Strange Lives of Martha Ivers
Sudden Fear
Storm Warming
T Men
The Set Up
The Street With No Name
They Live By Night
They Made me a Fugitive
Touch Of Evil
Where Danger Lives
Where The Sidewalk Ends
The Window

[dlhartzog]

Key Largo, Fallen Sparrow, Railroaded, Force of Evil, Pitfall? All pretty dark, and i think they meet quite a few of the other elements.

[cigar joe]

Key largo, fallen sparrow, railroaded, force of evil, pitfall? All pretty dark, and i think they meet quite a few of the other elements.

Yes Pitfall for sure - I haven't seen Fallen Sparrow or Force of Evil yet (that I can remember)- Railroaded and Key largo are probably good candidates also thanks

[dlhartzog]

I hesitate to recommend films, tastes differ and so on, but Force of Evil is terrific, with John Garfield as a crooked lawyer and Marie Windsor as the femme fatale. Very atmospheric, snappy blank verse dialogue, lowlife locations, available on bluray. So too Fallen Sparrow, film noir with all the trimmings, plus Nazis. Garfield again. Also available on dvd through Warners.

[cigar joe]

Will have to check them out, thanks.

[cigar joe]

adding The Seventh Victim

Films de la nuit

Armored Car Robbery
The Asphalt Jungle
The Big Combo
Black Angel
The City That Never Sleeps
Crime Wave
Criss Cross
The Crooked Way
Crossfire
Cry Of The City
The Dark Corner
Dead Reckoning
Desperate
Detour
Double Indemnity
Edge of Doom
Fallen Angel
He Walked By Night
Hollow Triumph (The Scar)
Killers Kiss
The Killers
The Killing
Kiss Me Deadly
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
99 River Street
The Phantom Lady
Raw Deal
Red Light
Scarlett Street
The Seventh Victim
The Strange Lives of Martha Ivers
Sudden Fear
Storm Warming
T Men
The Set Up
The Street With No Name
They Live By Night
They Made me a Fugitive
Touch Of Evil
Where Danger Lives
Where The Sidewalk Ends
The Window

[Surly]

I wonder why you feel a need for a list. I guess it's a game, and if I don't want to play I should shut up and walk away. But... Sure, like a fashionable neighborhood, the boundaries of noir keep expanding to fit every film with a guy in a fedora. But taking the correction this far feels like a reductive, academic process. I wonder why masterpieces like GUN CRAZY and MOONRISE are not on the list. Is it because the lovers don't betray each other? They aren't "noir" enough? OUT OF THE PAST and FORCE OF EVIL are noir, but do not make the list. And there are others. But we will always debate this subject, and will always disagree. And for me, it's a good thing that noir can't be pinned down, because it reveals the essential fact that it never was a working genre. It's a term applied retroactively to describe a period and style of crime film. All that matters to me is if a film is good. Hell, there are noir westerns, a genre that you use at the start to define what you think a genre should be. But noir is unlike all other genres. I guess it's a game that I don't want to play. I'm reminded of a song title, "Let the Mystery Be."