A Hard Core Noir Genre

[noirton mcgraw]

again, i'll second what was said by 'movie memories'(and thanks tell'in me i'm not crazy lol),... one more thing that always appeals to me from the 40's,50's noir films, those characters/character actors, .. their faces, manerizims, i just don't see them in todays movies, they don't make'em like them any more, and i don't think we'll ever see the likes of them any more ( they contributed in a big way to those movies)...charles mcgraw,ted de corsia, howard da silva,,jay adler,,neville brand, , phillip pine, leo gordon,,,william bendix,elisha cook,percy helton,john doucette,,william conrad,everett sloane,j.c flippen,frank puglia,malcom atterbury,i.stanford jolley,morris ankrum,lee van cleef,jack elam,rhys williams,anthony caruso,wil wright,richard benedict,frank dekova,mike mazurki,joe downing,joe sawyer,ralph dumke,wallace ford,thomas gomez,william talman .... and many more, ...they were like the dinosours,here and then ,gone, their fossils are the noir movies.... maybe i am a little crazy

[cigar joe]

A Hard Core Noir Genre should haves (updated)

Cinematography - Noir Stylistics - no fill light, Dutch angles, high contrast, shadows, etc.

B&W ONLY MUST be filmed in

Time Period roughly between 1934 to 1960 + or - coinciding with aerodynamic cars, boxy square-ish cars are OUT

Time of Day - basically perpetual NIGHT less than 5-15% of the film should be ever in daylight

Location - at least 75% or more of the film should be filmed in The City and its industrial periphery or a small town, no farms, mountains, beaches, forests, wilderness, unless at night and only 25% max.

Music mostly 95% Jazz and Blues, Dino, Sinatra, Bennett, Horne, Holliday, etc., some rock & roll but absolutely no Beatles

Storyline 95% CRIME related and its diegetic world of characters and their usually shady forms of employment.

Characters either obsessed or alienated and adrift in a world out of their control, and NO KIDS in any major roles all actors must look over 30.

Voice Over Narration to advance the story is always acceptable.

Flashbacks can be used to also to advance the story.

Costuming fedora hats a must for men or whenever appropriate, Women in heels, seamed stockings and garters always unless naked ;-) Smoking & Drinking mandatory

Weather overcast 50% of the film and some rain to provide pavement reflections

Graphic Novel Style as used in the film Sin City is perfectly acceptable in the Noir Genre in fact it may be the least expensive way to create the Diegetic Noir World of the Genre time period.

Archetypes that must always appear, bare lightbulbs in ceiling fixtures or hanging from cords, neon signs, smoke filled bar/nightclub/lounge scenes, lots of factory/wherehouse shots/scenes same for alley ways/side streets/wrestling/boxing posters, poolhalls/newspaper/shinestands, sidestreet diners/lounchenettes/pinball arcades, street sweeper trucks/newspaper/bread/garbage/laundry trucks, boarding/flop houses, rain,darkness, traffic/ cigars/cirgarettes/smoke/screams/sirens/ wisecracks/sarcasim/crying/punches/ringing phones/shiney shoes/high heel shoes/ dames/thugs/mugs/saps/fallguy/stoolie/con/conman/dick/gumshoe/copper/double cross/lies/gunshots/closeups of frighten faces/fear, smog/ pier/boat horn sounding/beatup faces/calest cab drivers/hats, a match being lit in darkness, a cat jumping from a gabbage can in dark alley, a crap game in a smoke filled back room/club,a back room poker game/ a racetrack scene, a smoke filled boxing match with closeups of the faces in crowd, a cop walking the beat, a corner candy store,shot of city stores/ womans/mens cothing with maniquins in window, sidewalks with garbage cans, ex pugs, drink'in/whiskey, banks shots/exterior/interior, bowling alleys, greasey hamburger joints, jazz joints, closeups of eyes in darkness (feel free to add more)

So again, what we should do from here on out is examine each of the criteria and go into them in depth, or add any if something is missing (as in the archetypes) list iconic characters that should be in these films. If you have a list of favorite Noir Style films examine the elements used in their creation and discuss the elements rather than just say a film title. Remember that we are also creating the Film Soliel Genre so the sun baked desert and crossroad diners Noir stylistic films that have more day than night should go into that Genre ;-).

Hard Core Noirs (that I've seen) so far that could be backed into the genre

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
Detour
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity

[noirton mcgraw]

again, i agree, well said. i'm sure we can add well over a hundred at least to your list, here's a few off the top of my head that are some of my favorites: The Killing ,White Heat , The Big Heat , the crooked way, Armored Car Robbery ,. The Naked City ,T-Men ,The Blue Dahlia ...

[cigar joe]

again, i agree, well said. i'm sure we can add well over a hundred at least to your list, here's a few off the top of my head that are some of my favorites: The Killing ,White Heat , The Big Heat , the crooked way, Armored Car Robbery ,. The Naked City ,T-Men ,The Blue Dahlia ...

I definitely agree with The Killing, and T Men, but White Heat and especially The Naked City seem to have quite a few Daylight segments to really fit that "hard core" def. I haven't seen The Crooked Way, and will have to screen Armored Car Robbery & The Blue Dahlia again. ;-)

[noirton mcgraw]

true on your point, but, thats the one thing that i allow and still consider it a true noir, although i do agree with you on the nighttime which makes the "ultimate" noir, but because the rest may have all the true noir elements, i still enjoy them very much,it's hard for me not to put them in. it's like a beautiful girl/woman who has perfect beautiful looks and body but has no personality at all, she's still beautiful and desireable, just not the "ultimate" complete package... i'll have to think on this, i don't know how many of the complete "ultimate" noirs there are, that have the complete package with all the elements.

[cigar joe]

true on your point, but, thats the one thing that i allow and still consider it a true noir, although i do agree with you on the nighttime which makes the "ultimate" noir, but because the rest may have all the true noir elements, i still enjoy them very much,it's hard for me not to put them in. it's like a beautiful girl/woman who has perfect beautiful looks and body but has no personality at all, she's still beautiful and desireable, just not the "ultimate" complete package... i'll have to think on this, i don't know how many of the complete "ultimate" noirs there are, that have the complete package with all the elements.

I agree they are all great Noirs (save of course The Crooked Way which I haven't seen) we can call them "Soft Core" Noir lol, even "The Big Heat" which is one of my favorites is more conventionally lit and has relatively bland locations and sets, than the HC list. As far as how many there are, that's a good question, and the reason I try and watch anything labeled Noir, you get burned more often than not but every once in a while, you find a gem, for me recently it was "The Window" (which has a kid Bobby Driscoll as a main character and goes against the requirements, but I added that no kids stipulation to counter the current Hollywood trend of marketing to that demographic, lol), and "Red Light", which pleasantly surprised me.

I think the films that make the HC list will have a tipping point as far as percentage of Visually dark stylistic lighting along with "the rest of the package" that puts them solidly in the category where that falls will be up to all of us to debate.

I also, as you may have guessed, pondered this for a while, and posted on other boards and I even did a study of the length of stylistic noir lighting to regular lighting/daylight % on a few films for a while and the results were interesting (I did it by fast forwarding stopping and writing down start & stop times then dividing that by total length of film):

% Noir Lighting Noir Films

The Set-up 100%
The Big Combo 100%
Mask of Dimitrios 100%
Raw Deal 100%
The Asphalt Jungle 97%
The Sweet Smell Of Success 95%+
He Walked By Night 95%
Detour 95%
Criss Cross 90%
The Narrow Margin 87%
The Window 86%
Crossfire 80%
The Woman on Pier 13 74%
The Strange love of Martha Ivers 71%
Act Of Violence 70%
Scarlet Street 70%
The Naked City 11%

anyway updated list:

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
Detour
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity
T Men
The Killing

[Johnny O'Clock]

Looking forward to the updated list when The Crooked Way & Kansas City Confidential take their rightful places...

[noirton mcgraw]

how can i forget Kansas City Confidential , i would definitly call it a 'true noir', when you're name'in off the top of your head that happens.

[cigar joe]

Looking forward to the updated list when The Crooked Way & Kansas City Confidential take their rightful places...

I believe I have Kansas City Confidential in my collection, I'll have to check it out.

[cigar joe]

Just a heads up observation, when French critics first commented on "Dark Films" from Hollywood the films that flickered one after the other on Paris screens after the war were The Maltese Falcon, Laura, Murder My Sweet, Double Indemnity, and The Woman In The Window, a few months later Paris screened This Gun For Hire, The Killers, The Lady In The Lake, Gilda, and The Big Sleep.

If this were a and IQ test question asking which one didn't belong in the set, I'd say The Maltese Falcon, since it no where near visually similar to the rest.

[cigar joe]

I just watched Dead Reckoning again and once Bogart hits Gulf City it's "NOIRSVILLE". Its probably a good candidate for the Hard Core List.

[Justanotherdame]

.

As for the ongoing debate as to noir being a genre or a style, it is totally subjective. You could find a list of experts who have claimed either position.

If there's one thing about film noir that I have consistently found in my present attempts to educate myself about this phenomenon, it definitely is the recurrence of this debate.

This is a fascinating thread. Thank you.

[cigar joe]

Updated list (added Dead Reckoning & The Crooked Way):

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
Detour
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity
T Men
The Killing
Dead Reckoning
The Crooked Way

[cigar joe]

The Crooked Way (1949) one word WOW This Film is a gem. Alton's cinematography is extremely dark and claustrophobic and fits the subject matter well, a feast for Noir sore eyes with a nice juxtaposition of studio set & seedy location shots that make a fine example of the noir aesthetic.

Since I started this thread I've read Blackout: World War II and the Origins of Film Noir by Sheri Chinen Biesen (Oct 19, 2005), and its given me some new insight into what I'm trying to quantify. I suggest everyone read it. Some quotes from the book below.

A number of elements all came together into what The New York Times tagged the "red meat crime cycle" (before French critics coined the term Film Noir) at the onset of WWII. "The PCA' s lapses in code enforcement, the Office of Censorship banning "un-American" Hollywood gangsters but condoning of depictions of war related atrocities, and the Office of War Information's regulation of screen stories depicting the combat front or domestic home front to promote the war effort---all of these developments complicated WWII censorship and encouraged hard-boiled film adaptations that initially reformed gangsters and promoted patriotic crime." Pictures were filmed with "tremendous studio rationing of lighting, electricity, film stock, and set materials" in an uncharacteristically dark urban Los Angeles basin in response to wartime blackouts.

The first Noir where all of the elements came together was Double Indemnity, and along with other wartime productions such as The Phantom Lady and, Murder My Sweet represented some of the most expressionistic, stylistically black phase of film noir (what I'm calling the Hard Core Noirs). "The noir aesthetic evolved from the wartime constraints on film making practices. Brooding, often brutal realism was conveyed in low lit images recycled sets (disguised by shadows, smoke, artificial fog, and rain), tarped studio back lots, or enclosed sound stages.

In the post war period film makers redefined noir realism having more flexibility in location shooting and lighting. Wartime Noir created a psychological atmosphere that in many ways marked a response to an increasingly realistic and understandable anxiety---about war, shortages, changing gender roles, and "a world gone mad"---that was distinctive from the later postwar paranoia about the bomb, the cold war, HUAC, and the blacklist which was more intrinsic to the late 40's and 50's Noir pictures." (lighter grayer or Films Gris, Soft Core Noir)

And you can see this in the films. Wilder's Double Indemnity is darker in visual style than 1950's Sunset Boulevard, Fritz Langs Ministry of Fear and Scarlett Street are darker than The Big Heat (1953). But there are some exceptions Aldrich's Kiss Me Deadly(1955) and Lewis' The Big Combo (1955) are pretty dark, but the general trend outlined in the book is distinctive and sort of explains the reason for the range in the pallet of Films Noir.

[noirton mcgraw]

as i stated in this thread previously, i don't want to say i told you so but.. i said 'the crooked way' was a 'pure' noir (imo for me). glad you got a chance to see it cigar joe, i knew you would like it, it's on my top 10 favorites list, now how can anthing in color compare to that ....

[cigar joe]

as i stated in this thread previously, i don't want to say i told you so but.. i said 'the crooked way' was a 'pure' noir (imo for me). glad you got a chance to see it cigar joe, i knew you would like it, it's on my top 10 favorites list, now how can anthing in color compare to that ....

You're right, lol, but if you haven't seen it yet take a look at Alton's work in Slightly Scarlet it has a weird juxtaposition of color, light & shadow.

Totally off the wall bizarre, its reminiscent of Pulp Fiction Magazine and decadent paperback book covers come to life. Its sort of a Neo Noir David Lynchesque look that is sort of indescribable, unless you've seen it, the the set designer, flamingly went overboard, (even in the extremely noirish seqments) and filled the screen with a pallet of colors, its like "Seven Brides For Seven Brothers" meets "Blue Velvet, except where Blue Velvet and Niagara used color, the colors were somewhat muted, in this film they basically run riot. The film even recalls somewhat the pallet of Warren Beatty's comic book film "Dick Tracy".

[cigar joe]

A Hard Core Noir Genre should haves (updated)

Cinematography - Noir Stylistics - no fill light, Dutch angles, high contrast, shadows, etc.

B&W ONLY MUST be filmed in

Time Period roughly between 1934 to 1960 + or - coinciding with aerodynamic cars, boxy square-ish cars are OUT

Time of Day - basically perpetual NIGHT less than 5-15% of the film should be ever in daylight

Location - at least 75% or more of the film should be filmed in The City and its industrial periphery or a small town, no farms, mountains, beaches, forests, wilderness, unless at night and only 25% max.

Music mostly 95% Jazz and Blues, Dino, Sinatra, Bennett, Horne, Holliday, etc., some rock & roll but absolutely no Beatles

Storyline 95% CRIME related and its diegetic world of characters and their usually shady forms of employment.

Characters either obsessed or alienated and adrift in a world out of their control, and NO KIDS in any major roles all actors must look over 30.

Voice Over Narration to advance the story is always acceptable.

Flashbacks can be used to also to advance the story.

Costuming fedora hats a must for men or whenever appropriate, Women in heels, seamed stockings and garters always unless naked ;-) Smoking & Drinking mandatory

Weather overcast 50% of the film and some rain to provide pavement reflections

Graphic Novel Style as used in the film Sin City is perfectly acceptable in the Noir Genre in fact it may be the least expensive way to create the Diegetic Noir World of the Genre time period.

Archetypes that must always appear, bare lightbulbs in ceiling fixtures or hanging from cords, neon signs, smoke filled bar/nightclub/lounge scenes, lots of factory/wherehouse shots/scenes same for alley ways/side streets/wrestling/boxing posters, poolhalls/newspaper/shinestands, sidestreet diners/lounchenettes/pinball arcades, street sweeper trucks/newspaper/bread/garbage/laundry trucks, boarding/flop houses, rain,darkness, traffic/ cigars/cirgarettes/smoke/screams/sirens/ wisecracks/sarcasim/crying/punches/ringing phones/shiney shoes/high heel shoes/ dames/thugs/mugs/saps/fallguy/stoolie/con/conman/dick/gumshoe/copper/double cross/lies/gunshots/closeups of frighten faces/fear, smog/ pier/boat horn sounding/beatup faces/calest cab drivers/hats, a match being lit in darkness, a cat jumping from a gabbage can in dark alley, a crap game in a smoke filled back room/club,a back room poker game/ a racetrack scene, a smoke filled boxing match with closeups of the faces in crowd, a cop walking the beat, a corner candy store,shot of city stores/ womans/mens cothing with maniquins in window, sidewalks with garbage cans, ex pugs, drink'in/whiskey, banks shots/exterior/interior, bowling alleys, greasey hamburger joints, jazz joints, closeups of eyes in darkness (feel free to add more)

Hard Core List to Date:

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
Detour
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity
T Men
The Killing
Dead Reckoning
The Crooked Way
Edge of Doom

So again, what we should do from here on out is examine each of the criteria and go into them in depth, or add any if something is missing (as in the archetypes) list iconic characters that should be in these films. If you have a list of favorite Noir Style films examine the elements used in their creation and discuss the elements rather than just say a film title. Remember that we are also creating the Film Soliel Genre so the sun baked desert and crossroad diners, on the road, Noir stylistic films that have more day than night should go into that Genre ;-).

So does anyone have any more input or want to make suggestions in the criteria?

I for one would like to nail down an agreed on tipping point for Time Of Day (in the Darkness vs Daylight) in the visuals of The Hard Core Noirs . In those that I measured day screen time on so far the two with the most Daylight scenes were Act Of Violence and Scarlet Street with 70%. Anybody on this board who are really into the Visual stylistics think that, is an unreasonable figure?

[cigar joe]

I'll add The Dark Corner to the list

[cigar joe]

And also add Where The Sidewalk Ends


Hard Core List to Date:

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
Detour
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity
T Men
The Killing
Dead Reckoning
The Crooked Way
Edge of Doom
The Dark Corner
Where The Sidewalk Ends

[cigar joe]

Hard Core List to Date added Kiss Me Deadly, Armored Car Robbery, and Sudden Fear:

The Big Combo
Crime Wave
Raw Deal
The Asphalt Jungle
He Walked By Night
Criss Cross
The Narrow Margin
Night And The City
Crossfire
Red Light
They Live By Night
Where Danger Lives
The Set Up
The Phantom Lady
Scarlett Street
Detour
The Window
99 River Street
Killers Kiss
The Killers
Double Indemnity
T Men
The Killing
Dead Reckoning
The Crooked Way
Edge of Doom
The Dark Corner
Where The Sidewalk Ends
Kiss Me Deadly
Sudden Fear
Armored Car Robbery