Zoot Suits

[cigar joe]

A Question for Noir heads, any one recall any Film Noirs that featured gangsters or anybody for that matter in Zoot Suits. This style of clothing was popularized by Mexican-Americans, African Americans, and Italian Americans during the late 1930s and early 1940s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_Suit_Riots

I can't think of a single period film that displayed that style of clothing.

I CAN remember "The Zoot Cat" a 1944 one-reel animated cartoon, and possibly Tex Avery's "Wolfie" character in "Red Hot Riding Hood" may have worn a Zoot Suit. There may have been musicals that featured them but I don't watch many musicals, and I believe there was a film in 1981 called Zoot Suit.

More recent depictions:

Who Framed Rodger Rabbit had the Toon patrol in zoot suits & Jim Carey in The Mask wears one.

[noirguru]

CJ, I can only think of two films, Spike Lee's, Malcolm X (1992) and the film that you mention, Luis Valdez's, Zoot Suit (1981).

[noirton mcgraw]

good question joe, i don't watch musicals either(not my cup of tea).. malcolmX is the only film i saw them in, not in any noir/crime or ganster films i can recall, not even in 'the untouchables' tv series. would the attire that tom powers (james cagney) and matt doyle were wear'in in 'the public enemy' when they went to kill 'putty nose' be considered zoot suits .....

[Nauga]

The last time I recall seeing a zoot suit aside from the film mentioned is from watching Tom and Jerry cartoons with my nephews

Speaking more as a vintage clothing collector they were relatively rare and shortlived as far as fashion goes. They were definitely for the more faddish "dandy" dressers, not so much the gentlemen, although zoot suit wearers were impeccably groomed. I would guess that the noir characters would be dressing more along the lines of Ivy League suits for our protagonists with a crisper, richer look for the villains. I would not be surprised to see a fringe character to maybe pop up in a zoot suit in an early noir or proto noir.

The war helped kill off the zoot suit. Extra fabrics (and those things took YARDS) went to the war. After the war in 1947 Dior launched his New Look for women which is why you see all the noir dames in full, swishy skirts. It was backlash against fabric rationing, but the zoot look never took off again as a serious fashion.

[waltermcwilliams]

A friend of mine, his wife, and I often go to local swing dancing events and sometimes a gentleman or two will show up in a zoot suit. Also, the first time I watched Scarlett Street I felt some of Dan Duryea's dress was zoot suitish. I am no vintage clothing expert, so it might just been pimpish.

[Steve-O]

A friend of mine, his wife, and I often go to local swing dancing events and sometimes a gentleman or two will show up in a zoot suit. Also, the first time I watched Scarlett Street I felt some of Dan Duryea's dress was zoot suitish. I am no vintage clothing expert, so it might just been pimpish.

That might be a zoot suit. Don't forget, Scarlet Street is actually supposed to take place in the 30s (while Woman in the Window with the same cast takes place in current time -- 1944)


I remember being annoyed that Kirk Douglas and Burt Lancaster wore Zoot suits in Tough Guys... even though they'd be too young to have worn them.

[Nauga]

This thread got me curious since I don't have much to do with 20s and 30s menswear as much as post-war stuff.

Dan might be wearing Oxford baggies. Here's a good site with great zoot/jazz fashion info. A quote:

Oxford Baggies originated on the campus of Oxford University, England, during the summer of 1925. The full cut of these pants and cuff with a circumference of 22 inches allowed students to easily slip them on over their beloved knickers, which had been banned by the University. Unlike the ZOOT SUITS above Oxford Baggies were more socially accepted and worn by the masses.

Here's a zoot that sold last fall for $78,000


Vintage Zoot by NoirBGirl, on Flickr

I think you could fit a MacBook in those pockets!

[Dark Corner]

You see Zoot Suits in 1941. Bobby Di Cicco's character Wally Stephens wears one in the film.

[cigar joe]

Its just funny/curious that a period Hollywood film wouldn't depict them.

[Arthur Bannister]

Its just funny/curious that a period Hollywood film wouldn't depict them.

If you're referring to films actually made in the period zoot suits were au courant, it's not curious at all when you consider they were worn primarily by young Blacks and Mexican-Americans who adopted them as a form of self-assertion and modish rebelliousness. They were hipster Beau Brummels thumbing their noses at the square (and white) world; not something Hollywood was likely to care to depict, unless mockingly and suitably neutered...

[cigar joe]

If you're referring to films actually made in the period zoot suits were au courant, it's not curious at all when you consider they were worn primarily by young Blacks and Mexican-Americans who adopted them as a form of self-assertion and modish rebelliousness. They were hipster Beau Brummels thumbing their noses at the square (and white) world; not something Hollywood was likely to care to depict, unless mockingly and suitably neutered...

That is sort of what I was getting at, you'd think Hollywood would have depicted the bad guys, the pimps, etc., etc. wearing them and having them get their comeuppance, even if it was only marginally, no?

If you've ever seen it think of the Florian's sequence with Moose Malloy and Phillip Marlowe in (Murder My Sweet) and having the patrons (white in this first screen adaptation) though (who in Farewell My Lovely were black BTW) and have them all in Zoot Suits, it would have been memorable.

[Adam Lounsbery]

I was just about to say that the only film I can think of from the '40s that features a zoot suit is Stormy Weather with Lena Horne. (That clip of Cab performing "Geechy Joe" is from Stormy Weather.)

I think one simple reason you don't see many zoot suits in Hollywood films is that Hollywood filmmakers in the '40s were wary of portraying black culture on-screen, or just weren't sure how to do it (or if they even should). With the storm of criticism that attended Song of the South (1946) from the NAACP and Ebony magazine, etc., it was safer not to feature black characters at all. The example of Murder, My Sweet is a great one. In the novel, it's very clearly a black neighborhood and an all-black bar, but the filmmakers side-stepped the issue by making it just another bar full of white patrons. (There are a few exceptions to this. In Out of the Past Robert Mitchum goes to a Harlem bar in which the patrons are neither "just like white folks" nor ridiculous stereotypes.)

In general, though, I think it was easier not to feature black and Mexican characters in zoot suits. Filmmakers were in the business of trying to please everyone, so they sidestepped the potential hurt feelings of people of color who didn't like the way they were depicted AND the potential offense of white movie-goers who didn't want to see zoot-suiters depicted onscreen.

[Movie Memories]

Just saw this thread.

There is one film, although it is not noir, that featured the Zoot Suit and what it represented to young Mexican-Americans. It stared Edward James Olmos, was made in 1981, and was aptly titled Zoot Suit.

You can see it here on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoot_Suit_(film)

It's a pretty interesting film if you ever get the chance to see it.

[Arthur Bannister]

I think one simple reason you don't see many zoot suits in Hollywood films is that Hollywood filmmakers in the '40s were wary of portraying black culture on-screen, or just weren't sure how to do it (or if they even should). With the storm of criticism that attended Song of the South (1946) from the NAACP and Ebony magazine, etc., it was safer not to feature black characters at all. The example of Murder, My Sweet is a great one. In the novel, it's very clearly a black neighborhood and an all-black bar, but the filmmakers side-stepped the issue by making it just another bar full of white patrons. (There are a few exceptions to this. In Out of the Past Robert Mitchum goes to a Harlem bar in which the patrons are neither "just like white folks" nor ridiculous stereotypes.)

Hmmmm, I just don't buy that complaints about SONG OF THE SOUTH made Hollywood wary of depicting blacks. I believe blacks actually got more screen time in the 40s than they did in the 30s, and the quality of Hollywood's portrayal of them in the 40s was definitely better. Stepin Fetchit and Mantan Moreland may have worked regularly in the 40s, but so did Canada Lee, Sir Lancelot and Rex Ingram, largely in dignified and serious roles. The need for wartime solidarity pushed ethnic portrayals forward and liberals and leftists were eager to move beyond the old stereotypes, but presentations that could be construed as promoting racial equality were liable to provoke charges of communist influence even before the blacklist. The Hearst papers had been using this line of attack since the 30s. Since the CPUSA was essentially the only political party in the 40s that was advocating full racial equality there was a kernel of truth in their accusations, but naturally that didn't stop them from using it against anyone who thought blacks (or other minorities) were worthy of equal treatment. If there was any diminution of screen time for blacks after 1946 (and I'm not sure that there was), I would lay blame for it on the Red Scare and the political scrutiny of Hollywood before anything else.

As for zoot suiters, they were really only a tiny subset of black culture anyway, a youth phenomenon that was associated in the public mind (insofar as they were even aware of them) with delinquency and crime.

In general, though, I think it was easier not to feature black and Mexican characters in zoot suits. Filmmakers were in the business of trying to please everyone, so they sidestepped the potential hurt feelings of people of color who didn't like the way they were depicted AND the potential offense of white movie-goers who didn't want to see zoot-suiters depicted onscreen.

Of course it was easier not to feature ethnic zoot suiters. In the early 40s Hollywood just didn't care. After the Zoot Suit Riots of 1943, though, I suspect it was due more to the latter reason than the former, but both may have entered into their calculations. Zoot-suiters just became too hot a topic for Hollywood to deal with outside of the safety zone of cartoons and musicals and by the end of the 40s they were yesterday's news.

[Adam Lounsbery]

That all makes sense. I think the fact that they were yesterday's news by the end of the '40s played a big part, too. Hollywood is not always the quickest to pick up on subcultures, and they have to be around for awhile sometimes to make it onto the big screen.

[Adam Lounsbery]

And speaking of zoot suits, don't miss American Masters on PBS tonight ... "Cab Calloway: Sketches."

http://blogs.suntimes.com/demand/201..._calloway.html

[Nighthawk]

The zoot suit enjoyed a very brief return in the public consciousness in the late nineties. The band The Cherry Poppin' Daddies (natch) had their only hit song with "Zoot Suit Riot," which has not one but two music videos:

The Original:
The Remake:

[cigar joe]

Too bad the Cherry Poppin' Daddies second clip had so many quick cuts you didn't get to see the suits all that well as well as the first. ;-)

[Adam Lounsbery]

I recently saw another movie featuring a hep cat in a zoot suit ... On Our Merry Way (1948). It's a series of loosely connected vignettes. In one, Henry Fonda and Jimmy Stewart play musicians who break down in a small town and arrange a contest for a replacement trumpet player. They get involved with a very annoying young hep cat who wears a zoot suit and uses lingo like "beat me, daddy"!

I can't tell you how the movie ends, though, because the disc from Netflix was cracked and it stopped playing halfway through. It didn't seem worth getting a replacement.